Former Australian diplomat John Lander returns to CITIZENS INSIGHT in the wake of the Israel-Gaza war to discuss the broader global geopolitical ramifications.
Interview with John Lander, Former Deputy Ambassador to China (1974-76), Former Ambassador to Iran (1985–87) Hosted by Robert Barwick, Research Director of the Australian Citizens Party
From Israel-Hamas War of Genocide to China-Taiwan issue, analysis to see the “rule-based order” of the US and Its allies, in which the “rules” keep changing to serve US’ and ít allies’ interests and no one really knows what the rules are.
After the Youtube clip is the computer-generated transcrip of the talk.
Transcript
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welcome to Citizens Insight the citizens party’s interview series on matters of domestic and international importance
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and my special guest today backed by popular demand is the former Australian ambassador to Iran and Deputy ambassador
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to China John Lander welcome John thank you Robbie it’s good to be back there’s
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been so many momentous developments over the last few months that I think it’s
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necessary for us to uh explore them a bit and especially their implications
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for Australia in the light of an impending World War well John you always
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bring a lot of great a lot of clarity to these discussions of relating to International Affairs because that
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that’s your area of expertise that’s what you worked in we have brought we we’ve laid out the world map here for
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the purpose of Consulting with for our discussion today because it is it is um
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uh a global geostrategic crisis that we’re confronted with it’s almost
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unprecedented um uh we want to talk about the danger of world war um
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especially as it relates to Australia that’s coming out of these hot spots in the world at the moment of course the if
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if we just site three hot spots we may not touch on all of them but we’ve got the Russia Ukraine crisis you’ve got the
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the uh the burning Hotpot of Israel Gaza but you’ve still got the the big one if
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it gets out of control is still uh China and the question of a war
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with China um and you’ve got some very important observations to make about all
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those things and how they relate to each other um so I appreciate you for uh uh
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joining us today to discuss that but I think um let’s talk about the burning
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one at the moment because that’s where all the world detention is and justifiably so um Israel and Gaza what’s
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what’s your summary of what do you think is the dynamic there at the moment uh well be before I um give you that I
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should say that I would imagine that some of what I have to say would probably invite the criticism of
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anti-Semitism and I just want to put it out in front that I am not
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anti-semitic uh the Palestinians are asitic people and expressing Sympathy
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for the Palestinian plot is by NE definition not
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anti-semitic uh so I am however
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anti-zionist uh when I first joined Foreign Affairs way back in 1967 I was asked where I wanted to be
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posted I said anywhere but Israel I was asked why and I said because the Zionist
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state of Israel is applying to the people of Palestine the same measures
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that the Nazis applied to the Jews uh I consider the that political Zionism has
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nothing to do with the promotion of uh the respect for uh the the Jewish people
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and the Jewish religion um it’s it’s um a distortion which many many Jews around
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the world agree with and I think that’s important to note that here in even in
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Melbourne we find many Jewish Australians marching with people who who
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are demonstrating in support of Palestine and against the uh Massacre of
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the Palestinian people so I just wanted to get that up front well it is important it is important to be able to
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say that and you it’s it’s a sort of statement that um up until now and still
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now will earn you a lot of criticism for saying it but um you can’t ignore the
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the true horror of what’s actually taking place right now now in Gaza and if um criticism of Israel is allowed to
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be construed as anti-Semitism which is what the the most hardcore zionists and
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and the neocon crowd have tried to to achieve over the last few years shut down any criticism of Israel then it’s
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actually in my view John doing a dis a disservice to Jewish people right it’s um that’s why a lot of Jewish people
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themselves don’t agree with it um and and it’s certainly going going to blow back on everybody um as if this is
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allowed to get out of control um so all right with that said uh this is this is
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serious what’s your view uh well the defense of
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Israel or and the defense of the right of Israel to exist does not uh imply in
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any way the necessary destruction of another people uh
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you cannot defend the right of one by denying the right of the other yeah uh
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and it it has been made clear by many statements by senior leaders in the
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current Israeli government from the Prime Minister down that their clear
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intention is to uh Drive the Palestinian people out of Palestine uh and uh they
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have suggested that the countries which are sympathetic towards Palestinians
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should take them uh and thereby clear
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them out of of Palestine uh which of course is uh a an ethnic cleansing
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process uh accompanied Now by a uh a level of Slaughter
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that the world has not seen since the second world war except I might say for
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the uh the American Onslaught on Iraq Y
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which uh going after the non-existent weapons of mass destruction resulted in
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the deaths of at least a million people uh when you say they’ve made it these the people in the Israeli government
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have made it clear um you you’re referring to things like even the Prime Minister Netanyahu quoting the Old
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Testament the worst parts of the Old Testament saying you know go and Slaughter amalec uh leave no one alive
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all this kind of thing the seed of AMC the seed of am um all men women and
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children and all cattle uh and livestock uh to wipe the the seed of amalec from
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the face of the Earth uh and he uh he was then quoted by Israeli
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soldiers who were uh clearing the as they call it uh the
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Palestinians out of the north of Gaza uh as they were blowing up uh Residential
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Properties uh I’ve seen a video of of a group of them chanting uh the the words of
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Benjamin Netanyahu about clearing the seed of AMC so it’s
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that’s only one the the case put forward by South Africa
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at the icj in the ha uh was extremely
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detailed extremely clear very very uh precisely presented and left I think no
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doubt in the mind of anybody who reads their document that uh Israel has e has
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explicitly expressed genocidal intent uh and much to Australia’s shame
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uh Australia has uh instead oftaking its responsibility as a sign
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signatry to the genocide convention which requires us to take any action we
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can to prevent a potential genocide we have done the opposite uh in
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providing military and political support to uh Israel to enable it to continue on
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its present course this is I think a betrayal of the
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Australian people it’s a betrayal of what we stand for or what we should
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stand for as a nation we have a proud history of developing the the United
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Nations we were in on the ground floor in the development of the United Nations
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organization and in on the ground floor in the development of many of the
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earliest uh resolutions and conventions of the United Nations
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organization including the genocide convention which of course dates back to 1948 uh and we have um
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basically refused to undertake our obligations under the
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convention and instead the one the the one
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group uh we could Now call it a country I think uh Yemen uh in seeking to
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prevent uh commercial chipping to and from Israel uh is in fact doing what it
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can to bring the jde to a halt and we have joined in attacking that well y is
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actually you’re right Yemen has said that their actions which are being characterized as equivalent of piracy
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and terrorism that their action is actually in um support of the genocide
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convention and trying to stop genocide and what they’re effectively trying to do this is my reading of it is impose a
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blockade on Israel now that’s being called terrorism yet the United States
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under no Authority whatsoever claims it has the right to impose blockades on countries
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right it has well Israel itself imposes a blockade on Gaza and has done so for 17 years exactly Israel also
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participates um not that long ago Israel bombed an Iranian ship in the Persian
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Gulf going to Syria right because Israel claims to the right to have a blockade on Syria so that that’s never called
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terrorism and this is important for people to understand when they think about you know the way this is
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characterized in the media that’s never called terrorism but what the yemenis are doing the h are doing in with the
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shipping is and now we have gone and assisted the United States and the
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United Kingdom in bombing them yes you’re quite right I would argue that the that the hoodis in Yemen have in
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fact undertaken their responsibilities under the the genocide convention uh one of the effects of of
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the uh British and American um attacks
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on the hooes in Yemen I think has been simply to consolidate
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the authority of the the huis as the legitimate government in Yemen the the
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Civil War that was taking has had been taking place in Yemen over more than seven
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years uh supported by the United States through its proxy Saudi Arabia um has is
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virtually over and the opponents of the htis have been clearly
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discredited uh in comparison to what the the htis are doing they should be called
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by their proper name anara um but they they are
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clearly taking action in response to the will of their people uh who
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overwhelmingly support Palestine in its struggle against the um the overwhelming
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uh force of the Israeli um Defense Force which is armed by the United States
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because it should be remembered that the Palestinians do not have an army um they don’t actually they don’t
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have a state uh they are in Palestine an
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area which is claimed by Israel and the area that is occupied by the
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Palestinians is actually under occupation under forceful occupation by
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Israel so the the actions by Hamas as
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horrendous as it was uh is more in the character of a rebellion against the
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oppression of an occupying power than an invasion of one state by another that is
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its status under international law yeah which is a very important distinction that the Israelis don’t want to make
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they’re trying to they’re trying to treat Gaza and Hamas as if it’s a separate country with its own government
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that they’re defending against yeah which is a paradox because they claim that that that Gaza and the West Bank
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are actually that do actually belong to Israel uh and that uh the the
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Palestinians have no right to it so on the one hand they say it is ours and on the other hand they say we’ve been
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invaded yeah uh from within our own territory now now John there’s a human
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factor here you to it earlier when you said talked about how the the the houthis are responding to the the yemeni
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population’s views so Israel will say it’s responding to the Israeli population’s views and all of this is
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Justified because of just what an atrocity was perpetrated on October 7
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the the worst the worst um Massacre of Jews since the Holocaust itself and
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therefore what they’re doing is Justified and every every other country would be justified and doing the same
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what is your view of that argument firstly uh my understanding is
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that that the vast majority of the citizens of Israel do in fact um support
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the The View that the the uh Palestinians are subhuman and uh have no
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right to be there but there are dissenting views within Israel itself
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secondly I think and far more importantly is that two wrongs do not make a
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right uh that it is it is not a an appropriate response to an atrocity to
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then commit a a an further atrocity of
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many many many times greater magnitude yeah um in response uh it is
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uh it’s just uh completely immoral and I think
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uh unacceptable from a moral point of view but it’s also politically um um
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unwise and counterproductive well we’ve got um as
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you referred to the the South Africans have taken Israel to the international court of justice and accusing them of
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having genocidal intent um but of course the United States has completely shot that down and and said there is no there
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is no genocide taking place in Gaza yet and we’ll come back to this later in the
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discussion but the same United States for the last three years has been blowing the horns saying that what China
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is doing to weers in shinjang is genocide basically making him go to TFE
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college and retrain is genocide but what’s happening in Gaza is not genocide and so if you’re if you’re an Arab in
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the world and you’re seeing what’s happening in Gaza that is being um protected by the United
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States and the United Kingdom and Australia Etc as if it’s somehow acceptable um isn’t that going to one
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give you a very strong impression that in global terms you are a second class citizen your life doesn’t matter and B
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Fuel any uh you know fuel the kind of backlash that’s going to create more
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destabilizations more terrorism Etc uh well my first comment is you said that the United States had shot down the uh
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South African case at the icj uh I don’t agree uh they didn’t shoot it down they
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merely rejected it U shooting down implies that they had come up with some sort of an argument which um uh
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undermined the the arguments being put forward by South Africa they they
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clearly did not do that uh that’s why you’re the expert foreign policy Diplomat and on the commentator the the
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the uh the Israeli arguments in the icj
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uh were clearly an attempt to defend the indefensible and the United States um
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outright rejection of the uh South African case uh really amounted to
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nothing more than that they certainly did not weaken the South African case at
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all yeah um uh the big concern I think for the
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world is the uh the possibility that the icj
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may find a procedural argument to not
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proceed and not rule on the South African application which as I has
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implications for the whole world because it it really um will
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um te te out the foundations of international law just completely rip
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them away it will be uh an acceptance you of the rule of the Jungle
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rather than the rule of law ironically at the hands of the
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nations in the world that tell everybody every day they’re enforcing the rules based order which of course they’re not
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enforc the rule of international law the rules-based order yeah what’s the
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difference the rules-based order is a a set of for ever varying and con
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constantly vacillating uh rules devised by the United States for the benefit of the
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United States and its Western allies uh a very good example of course is the the
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the United States claim and our claim uh in the Red Sea that the actions they’re
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taking are upholding and Richard Miles said this himself Australia must uh
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support the United States and the UK because we must uphold the freedom of
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navigation the the uh United Stations the United Nations convention on the law
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of the sea uh is not what the United States is inm attempting to uphold no at
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all it is attempting to uphold the the right of the western powers to
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uh continue their navigation wherever they please uh the United States is not
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even a signatory to the law of the sea convention and repudiates it quite
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frequently uh so uh I personally I’m am quite distressed by this glib um
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approach approach of the Australian government of always insisting that we
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must uphold the rules-based order um because one of the most difficult things
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about the rules-based order is finding out what the rules are the Ever Changing rules the Ever
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Changing rules um and we are going to have to face our responsibilities with
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regard to China uh we we cannot continue to pursue uh a a hostile attit ude
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towards China uh but we’ll come to that in a minute
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um the largest strategic picture that I wanted to talk about this morning was
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the way in which the crisis in Ukraine
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the Middle East and the way that they relate to the potential crisis uh with
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regard to China first and foremost the United
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States has not abandoned its policy of Defending its position as the of of
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Primacy in the world yeah that is still the driving force of United States
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foreign and defense policy known as the wolf ofit Doctrine known as The Wolf of itsz Doctrine that’s number one secondly
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in pursuit of that it has to be remembered that before the Ukraine war
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broke out as if Wars actually break out rather than being the deliberate agency of
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human of human persons but before the war in Ukraine the United States White
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House spokesman actually told a press briefing on the 22nd of January
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2022 that the United States by its actions in concert with
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its European uh Partners would so weaken
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Russia as to prevent it from exercising any influence on the international stage
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so the purpose was clear from the start
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and they have not succeeded in that aim uh it is indisputable now that the that
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Russia is in a stronger position today than it was before that war before
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NATO pursued its uh offensive against uh Russia and I may be attacked for saying
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that the Ukraine war is is the result of NATO’s aggression but NATO itself has
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made it very very clear that it it has said the war in Ukraine is NATO’s War um
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Yen stoltenberg has said that on numerous occasions so it is quite clear that it is NATO driven by the United
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States that uh is responsible certainly for the continuation of the the war in
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Ukraine y likewise of course in pursuit of of the supremacy of the United States
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the United States gives completely unconditional and unquestion unquestioning support to
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Israel which has uh resulted in the current tumult in that
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region and although it says that it has no wish for the war to widen that it
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should be contained as a war between Israel and Hamas the surrounding
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countries uh in J well we’ve mentioned Yemen of course and then we’ve got
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Jordan and Saudi Arabia and Syria uh and of course Iran uh all in the and Lebanon
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and turkey actually and turkey surprisingly enough which is of course a
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a NATO member and the the biggest army in NATO and yes I’m glad you made that point um they all have expressed
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sympathy for and support for the Palestinian people in this conflict yeah
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uh and we are seeing gradually day by day an increasing involvement of these
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countries um hisbah in Lebanon has been attacking North North of Israel and
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Israel has been counterattacking that’s been going on for a while um we have
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recently seen I think it was last week the the Iranian revolutionary guard Corp
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not one of Iran’s so-called proxies um in the the
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um anti-israeli uh so-called terrorist group groups in uh closer to Israel but
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now Iran itself with its own Defense Force has attacked an Israeli
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installation inil in uh in Iraq so
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that’s one step closer to Iran being fully engaged in the conflict uh now if
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Iran and Israel are at war with each other um that puts at risk Iran’s oil
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facilities in particular uh and the closure of the uh Persian
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Gulf in in a way similar to the closure of the the Red
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Sea if the if the Straits of hus were to be shut down or if if Iran’s oil
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production and oil shipping facilities were um destroyed
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destroyed this impacts vitally on China’s interest Iran is a very very important
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supplier of energy to China Y and of course we can see the China’s
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recognition of that fact by the fact that China has located uh numerous
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um military vessels in the area of the uh Straits of
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huz uh they have uh signaled that they are willing to protect their interests
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uh if it comes to it uh now if uh if
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China is dragged into the conflict in the Middle East this serves the purpose
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of the United States strategic plan of
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involving China in a war which would help help to uh bog down China’s
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Economic Development and sty its um its
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Economic Development cooperation with other
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countries it the United I would expect to see the United States to try extremely hard in
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the same way that it has done in Ukraine to technically not be engaged in such a
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war but but to support those who were fighting on the side of Israel what
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you’re describing means they also have an incentive to assist Israel in keeping this
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going um I think that would
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be it’s beyond my knowledge to say so um I’m only able to say What appears to be
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the case um I don’t know whether the United States has had uh has sort of
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logically worked out that it’s in their interest to keep the Israel um Hamas war
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going uh and that that they can sort of
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play a dual game of uh remaining
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disengaged themselves whilst ensuring that other countries become engaged um
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well the foreign policy establishment in Washington is known as The Blob to reflect the fact that it’s not always of
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one mind Etc but there would be factions in that that that would absolutely have that and we and we should remember that
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the United the United States national defense strategy explicitly laid out uh
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a strategy of uh embroiling China in a
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war yeah and that at the time that that
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was developed it was seen that Taiwan could be induced
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to uh cause a conflict with mainland China
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uh the chances of that happening I think
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have diminished despite the elections in [Music]
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Taiwan the Taiwan elections resulted in the election as president of of the
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leader of the DP the DPP which is the the Democratic people’s party which is
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um strongly supported by the National Endowment for democracy of the United States uh and they’re the ones talk
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about independ as the instrument for pushing uh Taiwan to Independence
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yeah which would be a trigger for war so that has been interpreted by the uh
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mainstream Western media as the Taiwanese people in endorsing the policy
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of Independence for Taiwan and it’s far from being the case the the DPP candidate won by 40% of the
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vote that means that 60% of the vote is not in favor of the dpp’s policy
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regarding U potential Independence for Taiwan and explicitly so because the other two candidates were were both
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explicit about not seeking Independence getting on with China and they they got 60% of the support that’s 60% of the
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vote and there was a 30% of the electorate that didn’t vote at all anyway didn’t vote at all anyway and who who knows what they thought so the
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people as a whole in Taiwan have clearly not overwhelmingly supported the the
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dpp’s policy of continuing this pursuit of Independence and even uh William Li
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uh L CH uh who is now the the president of the province of Taiwan one has walked
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back uh hasn’t he hasn’t disavowed but he certainly walked back from the idea
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of early Independence for Taiwan um and I would expect to see him
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over time continuing to pursue the the expansion of the beneficial
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relation that have taken place in trade investment uh education people to-
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people exchanges um employment and so on between the province of Taiwan and the
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mainland U which is the preferred course of course for the um the Communist Party
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of China the policy of the Communist Party of China is the peaceful reintegration yeah of the life of Taiwan
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into the life of the N the nation and that is continuing to to take place and
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my impression is that most of the people in Taiwan want that status quo to
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continue now the Australian the chinaese ambassador to Australia on Election Day
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which was last Saturday as we’re recording here put put out an article pointing that out yeah um and he’s been
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criticized for it and he’s been attacked for it not just criticized uh he’s been accused of of threatening
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Australia of all things uh where he has pointed out the obvious Australia and I was of course as
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you know I was involved before during and after uh the recognition of the
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People’s Republic of China uh 30% of my career uh was spent working on relations
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with China the position that Australia adopted was that we accepted that there
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was one China that we accepted that Taiwan is a province of
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China uh that that policy of one China incorporating the province of Taiwan was
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not only accepted by us but was accepted by every other country that recognized
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China and was accepted by the United Nations uh which established that the
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one seat for China in the United Nations was to be occupied by the People’s
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Republic of China and accepting that was China’s requirement for opening up diplomatic relations with us right yes
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of course for which for which we knew we would benefit because we have access to the world’s biggest Market yeah all all
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of that we but we we uh we did not then
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argue yeah uh nor have we argued since uh that Taiwan is officially not part of
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China uh and our our official legal position therefore is that Taiwan is a
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province of China so when we send our warships into Taiwanese Waters we are in
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fact sending our warships into Chinese Waters the equivalent of Warships
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between Tasmania and Victoria yes if the Chinese Center warship between Australia and T and the and the island of
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Tasmania which is claim by Australia but has never been ruled by Australia to defend Tasmania to to defend Tasmania
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against Australia uh we would certainly get very upset um so uh the other thing
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I would say is that that there is always a great deal of confusion of this question of of sovereignty and and
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governance the sovereignty of a Nation does not change when there is a change
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of governance y y uh if we have a a
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labor party in power in canra and we have a liberal party in power in Tasmania that does not make Tasmania any
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less a part of the Sovereign Nation of Australia yeah and it’s the same in
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China uh the island of Taiwan the province of Taiwan has a different form
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of governance from the rest of mainland China and indeed mainland China has
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different forms of government es in different parts of China we have the
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special administrative regions of Hong Kong and maau and and of course shenen
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and each one of those has different characteristics they are not identical and we also have the autonomous regions
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of uh in Mongolia Tibet and syang which whilst they are part integral part of
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the Sovereign territory of China they are uh neverthe
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less operating under varied systems of governance well and this as you
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mentioned propaganda before there’s an exact example of this in the Australian
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newspapers propaganda the way it described when it attacked the Australian Ambassador it talked about
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how the CCP want to take control of
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Taiwan even though they have never governed it and of course it’s not true the the CCP I the government of China
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wants Taiwan to be part of China not owned by the CCP they’re just the
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government of China right this is the way they word the proper end well the the Communist party for China has always
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made it very very clear that the the issue is that Taiwan is part of the
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Sovereign territory of China yeah they have never said that they wish to take
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over governance in Taiwan they even said exactly the opposite and in fact de
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facto right at this moment the one state two
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systems policy of the Communist Party of China is functioning if in regard to
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Taiwan Taiwan has a different system within Taiwan that does not remove it
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from The Sovereign territory of China y uh and of course it we it is
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conveniently forgotten that Taiwan itself was a one party State yes a rather brutal one party state for many
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many years it’s only recently in the 90s that it has has changed its system of
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governance to uh a electoral democracy
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um we’ve been running a series in our magazine the Australian alert service on this history of Taiwan which is
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fascinating when you see what what it was really like but my point here is of course that that Australia is in fact in
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breach of the convention to which it is a signatory the convention of the law of the sea when we send
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warships into Chinese Waters but just so we don’t get off
39:12
track you’ve you you introduced us with a much larger point I think want want to make sure people get it which is that
39:18
thanks to this interesting outcome from the Taiwanese election and some other things because the immediate danger of
39:25
war with China CH may not be growing the American strategy may be to draw China
39:31
into war well I don’t I don’t know if it’s a strategy I’m looking at the actual the the results of events yeah um
39:39
as I see them U the elections in Taiwan have not brought Independence for Taiwan
39:47
any closer yeah uh and so the prospect of Taiwan provoking a war uh with
39:55
mainland China has receded yes in my view right however
40:01
the events in the Middle East and particularly in the way in which they appear to be drawing China further and
40:07
further in uh is raising the prospect of China being involved in a middle eastern
40:16
War uh as I said I I believe that the United States would try to
40:21
to technically remain outside that war for as long as it POS possibly can um
40:29
but I China will defend its interests in its in its uh energy relationship with
40:36
Iran if necessary if that does result in the
40:42
United States becoming U an an active belligerent against
40:48
China Australia is automatically involved yeah because uh because
40:54
American no it’s not just just because what we do we have no say in it yeah you
41:00
know it’s like the song says because we have no say in it no say in it at all we
41:06
we are the we have handed over sovereignty uh to the United States
41:14
in many respects uh our one of the most important is that Bas military bases in
41:21
Australia are under the the unimpeded needed access and exclusive control of
41:30
the United States so they decide when where and how uh the facilities in
41:36
Australia and against whom those fa facilities in Australia will be used uh
41:42
for many many many years now Pine Gap has been the the jewel in the crown um
41:48
of the United States military presence in Australia and has been used uh in the
41:54
war in Ukraine uh I have no doubt at all that it is currently being used in uh
42:01
the war in the Middle East we can Israel Gaza War this has been documented we can
42:06
confirm that guidance of Israeli strikes has come from Pine Gap yes so Pine Gap
42:11
is is is heavily involved so the question then arises if the United
42:16
States does find itself in an actual belligerent uh con confrontation uh with
42:24
China uh what then happens to Australia because the United States
42:31
undoubtedly would be conducting its operations against China from its command centers in
42:39
Australia so to me it would appear to be logical that China would then feel
42:46
obliged to attack such centers in Australia uh and of course Australia on
42:54
past performance would feel obliged to join the join the United States in any
43:01
war against China because we we felt that we simply had to because of the
43:07
ansus alliance we had to go into the war in Iraq uh which was a very shameful
43:13
episode in Australia’s history uh we feel that we have to support the United
43:18
States in the in its support of Israel against Hamas uh because of the ansis
43:25
alliance so I don’t think we would have any choice Richard miles and and and I think
43:32
the Prime Minister have said that Australia has given no guarantees to the United States that we would join it in a
43:38
war against China but the United States has left Australia with no choice but to
43:45
be involved so it’s a bit of irony that the the alliance that on which we feel
43:51
our security depends is what will um destroy our national security by
43:56
dragging his award yes of course it will and that as we’ve said on previous
44:02
discussions that that’s been pointed out by many people including the late
44:08
M I must say I will reiterate the point I made in a previous interview as well
44:14
that when I was working in the department of Foreign Affairs developing the uh the final communic on recognition
44:23
of the People’s Republic of China I inserted into a policy planning paper
44:29
which I was one of the people involved in drafting the the notion that the
44:37
answers Alliance should mean less to us in the future than it has done in the past and that Australia
44:44
should chart independent policies more in the Australian National interest and
44:50
in the interest of our near neighbors the exact opposite has
44:55
happened none of our near neighbors agrees with our current
45:02
defense policy No in fact they see it as a threat they object to it they they see it as threatening that it threatens in
45:09
various ways it certainly threatens uh uh a nuclear AR sorry a nuclear
45:14
proliferation in in the Pacific we’ve brought nuclear weapons into an area that they didn’t exist before previously
45:20
were were excluded uh it also um threatens a a general arms race in our
45:29
neighborhood uh the more we we build up uh our long range uh offensive
45:38
capabilities which is what Mr miles keeps talking about our ability to to um
45:45
uh inflict uh lethal damage on an adversary far from our Shores uh the
45:52
more our near neighbors will question our intentions towards them as well um
46:00
and we we would be far better advised I think to I still think what I said back
46:06
in 1971 applies that we would be far better advised to develop much closer
46:12
relations with our neighbors than to join with the United States in farflung
46:18
Wars we should be of course at the point that Australia of course joined the United States in the war in
46:24
Ukraine well John that that um brings us to something we can conclude on then I
46:30
think so it’s always rather Stark and striking to into have have you on our
46:36
show with with these insights but let’s let’s um talk about what could we how
46:41
should we be thinking if we wanted this not to happen and we actually wanted to bring about peace what’s what’s your
46:47
view on on the kind of um role Australia should play and could play in the way
46:54
the world is maneuvering at the moment that might be positive and we could help bring about peace well I find that very
47:01
difficult question to answer because um I have an extremely pessimistic view of
47:07
where Australia is headed I I think we’ve we’ve dug
47:12
ourselves into a very deep hole and it’s very difficult to climb out of
47:20
um and every passing day we seem to dig ourselves in a little deeper it would have been so it would
47:28
have been preferable for Australia to have simply said we will abide by our obligations under the genocide
47:34
convention in regard to Israel yeah um
47:40
the the I think part of the problem is of course we don’t have leaders in Australia we have rulers and the rulers
47:47
ignore the not only the opinion of the general public but they in ignore increasingly ignore the opinion of their
47:54
Rank and file uh the rank and file of the labor party is clearly not in in
48:00
tune with the government’s policies uh regarding uh Israel and Hamas and it’s
48:07
clearly not in tune even with the government’s policies towards China yeah
48:12
um the schizophrenic policies that we have towards China where on the one hand we say we want a trade relationship with
48:19
China and on the other hand we regard China as the biggest threat um in other
48:24
words quite paradoxically we’re asking China to continue to fund the
48:29
development of our capability to fight them yeah you you you keep you keep buying
48:37
our IR or we will keep paying the Americans $360 billion for submarines to
48:42
lock you into your part of the world and there and and trap you in and and fire
48:47
missiles on you if we think you’re getting too up yeah so that brings us back to your question about the United
48:53
Nations I think the only way for Australia is is to um revive its commitment to the ideals
49:01
of the United Nations uh to vote in favor of resolutions that that seek to
49:09
uphold the the structure of uh international
49:14
law which we so frequently fail to do um in in recent
49:21
times and couldn’t we look at a situation like the Middle East and as
49:29
um a friend of mine who who actually is Jewish uh uh suggested just before
49:36
Christmas who had been as outraged by October 7 as everybody but when he when
49:41
he thought about it more he thought you know we’ve got a failed we got a broken situation in the Middle East and the
49:48
role of the Americans and the British Etc they it it just isn’t working and he suggested now might be the time to bring
49:55
in countries that have credibility and it just so happens China in world affairs is a country that has
50:01
credibility has good relations with almost all these countries it does deals it does business with them all including
50:07
Israel enough and of course it it broke of the reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Iran and how big a deal was
50:13
that and well that was enormous because firstly it was it was uh reaching an understanding between two
50:21
opposing uh forms of Islam uh Iran is
50:26
Shia and uh Saudi Arabia is largely wahhabi uh non Shia Sunni and and uh and
50:36
Sunni um and of course Iraq I was in
50:41
Teran during the Iran Iraq war so I was there when Iraq was bombing Iran and bombing Teran um fortunately no bombs
50:49
fell on me but they certainly fell on the city of tan for for this interview too while I was there
50:57
but now even Iran and Iraq are working together uh to to develop U more
51:05
harmonious uh relations so and of course the one thing that has United all of the
51:12
Islamic World it seems including the Islamic World nearest to Australia which is Indonesia um is in their opposition
51:20
to the current Zionist policy of eradication of Palestinians M um
51:27
so it it is because I think the whole of the Islamic world the the
51:36
um the Islamic cooperation organization is 21 is it or 27 countries all of which
51:45
have uh endorsed the opposition to
51:50
um Israel’s attack on Palestine or on the palestin iians um
51:58
so that’s creating uh a much greater critical mass for a
52:07
World War y yeah uh as you say China has
52:13
uh has the respect of the Islamic World
52:18
despite coming back to your previous Point despite the Western propaganda about China’s treatment of the wigers in
52:25
Sy young which has been so thoroughly debunked so many times I don’t think we need to go there except to say that the
52:32
the the the main block of countries that have explicitly defended China repeatedly have been the Islamic
52:38
countries which is one of the reasons why China has such good relationships with Islamic countries but um so whether
52:45
China would be able to uh broker uh an understanding in the Israel Hamas
52:54
conflict I don’t know I’m not sure um I think at the
52:59
moment by their actions um militarily
53:04
China has demonstrated more of an interest in protecting their own economic and particularly energy
53:11
interests rather than um becoming um you
53:17
know getting themselves mered in the Quagmire of middle east’s conflict um but we
53:24
shall see um I don’t Chinese diplomacy has never
53:29
failed to surprise the world U so it may yet do so again but as far as Australia and if it
53:37
does Australia should be supporting it we should indeed I think diplomatically we should do everything we possibly can
53:43
to encourage uh any effort by China to uh bring about a resolution of the
53:49
conflict that should be our role anywhere in the world uh rather than
53:55
simply donning our Jack Boots and rushing off to uh join the Americans in
54:02
whatever War they happen to be Pro Prosecuting at the time and I you know we’ve been doing it ever since the the
54:08
Korean War um and I think America’s had something like 147 Wars since the second
54:15
world war so you know we we haven’t good track record uh as a conciliator and of
54:22
course uh we we certainly in the current uh
54:28
situation we uh have joined the hypocrisy of the
54:35
western propaganda machine which which produces the
54:40
ignorance which then the governments exploit to be able to pursue these policies that are purs that are not in
54:45
our interest but in the United States and the UK’s yeah yeah you know interest
54:51
yes yes the uh the gaslighting in Australia is overwhelming y yep um well
54:58
John I think we should leave it there you’ve shocked us you’ve shocked us enough for the day I think that’s a
55:05
that’s a fairly grave warning though we should look for we should keep a an eye out for that danger that you’ve
55:10
described um because we know we know as we’ve talked about on in previous
55:16
installments of these interviews there is a military industrial complex it is always looking for war opportunities
55:22
that is the evil presence in the world we’re always that the forces for peace are always up against which is expanding
55:28
its foothold in Australia exactly we’re and we’re funding it so we we know we
55:34
know that exists and so and so it’s right to be on the lookout for where the war dangers um are are getting greater
55:42
um because we’ve talked so much about Israel and Gaza I I’ll conclude by a little plug for the report that we put
55:48
out just before Christmas on the the Temple Mount plot who is sparking where we’ve re-released some anal from years
55:55
ago who was sparking a religious war in the Middle East where you got Elite forces in the United States and
56:01
especially the United Kingdom in this case very elite um groupings of of interests actually deliberately
56:08
sponsoring the craziest of the crazies in Israel the the the religious
56:13
extremists who see themselves as you know totally justified and everything
56:19
because they’re God’s chosen people they want to rebuild Solomon’s Temple on the on the ruins of the mosc of om AR the
56:25
alaa mosque and which would start World War III that that is what that is the one thing that will get all those 27
56:31
Muslim countries in the same army yes right for sure I think so yes and and there were and and these people in
56:37
Israel would not have the power they have were it not for the outside sponsorship they receive and it comes
56:43
from Australia as well our prime minister our former prime minister was over there recently who’s fundamentalist
56:49
born again Christian who buys into all this narrative um backing them up to the hill so we’ve exposed is that there are
56:55
there are forces who want war and they so we’ll put a link below this where you can have a look at the report I’m
57:00
talking about and just just comment that goes all the way back to the fact that
57:06
it was the UK that sponsored the creation of Israel and it was the UK’s
57:12
military forces that helped Drive helped
57:17
in the the partition of Palestine to to drive Palestinians out of the territory
57:25
that had been agreed by the United Nations resolution should be now the
57:31
state of Israel um so the UK has been a driving force in the creation of Israel
57:38
and in the sustaining of Israel ever since day one yep no for sure our party
57:45
is not a party that goes around trying to decry the existence of Israel Etc we
57:51
like to look at what’s what’s the possibility to bring peace to all places how could you bring a lasting peace
57:58
between the Israelis and the Palestinians Etc we don’t have a a um a chip on our shoulder about Israel but we
58:05
see the hypocrisy and now we see the hypocrisy in the worst possible terms because
58:10
there is an absolute Massacre there’s of the 24,000 civilians in Gaza that have been
58:16
killed 10,000 over 10,000 are children there’s a thousand children numbers increasing every day exactly there’s a
58:22
thousand children who have who have had limbs amputated without anesthetic
58:27
because of the blockade on Gaza right that’s right and that is acceptable to
58:34
our government acceptable in the minds of so many uh people in the west
58:41
because they are numbers they are faceless and nameless yep y so it’s just
58:47
a statistic uh whereas um while we claim we’re the champions of Human Rights
58:53
though yeah that’s what I meant about hypocrisy um all right well anyway
59:00
obviously if we if we kept going in this vein we wouldn’t stop we’d be here all day I just wanted to thank you for the
59:06
opportunity to sound the warning again to uh Australia um watch out uh war is
59:14
coming and we’re not doing anything to avoid it yeah all right well John thank
59:20
you very much for joining us today thanks to the viewer for watching citizens Insight stay tuned for more
59:27
more installments we plan to do a lot more of our citizens Insight interviews this year we didn’t do very many last
59:33
year but there’s a lot to be said so look out for more installments uh in the future including the the one that we’re
59:40
planning next in a couple of weeks time will be about this this Temple Mount plot we’re going to do an interview with
59:46
one of the authors of the analysis of that so look out for that but in the meantime um thanks for tuning in please
59:51
help us get this message around like it uh share it on your social media and and
59:57
through email Etc um uh subscribe to the show click on the Bell icon so you get
1:00:02
notified of of of our new future episodes and yeah help us get it around
1:00:08
thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you next time on Citizen’s
1:00:13
[Music]
1:00:23
Transcript
0:03
[Music]
0:23
welcome to Citizens Insight the citizens party’s interview series on matters of domestic and international importance
0:29
and my special guest today backed by popular demand is the former Australian ambassador to Iran and Deputy ambassador
0:36
to China John Lander welcome John thank you Robbie it’s good to be back there’s
0:42
been so many momentous developments over the last few months that I think it’s
0:49
necessary for us to uh explore them a bit and especially their implications
0:54
for Australia in the light of an impending World War well John you always
1:00
bring a lot of great a lot of clarity to these discussions of relating to International Affairs because that
1:06
that’s your area of expertise that’s what you worked in we have brought we we’ve laid out the world map here for
1:13
the purpose of Consulting with for our discussion today because it is it is um
1:20
uh a global geostrategic crisis that we’re confronted with it’s almost
1:25
unprecedented um uh we want to talk about the danger of world war um
1:32
especially as it relates to Australia that’s coming out of these hot spots in the world at the moment of course the if
1:40
if we just site three hot spots we may not touch on all of them but we’ve got the Russia Ukraine crisis you’ve got the
1:48
the uh the burning Hotpot of Israel Gaza but you’ve still got the the big one if
1:55
it gets out of control is still uh China and the question of a war
2:00
with China um and you’ve got some very important observations to make about all
2:05
those things and how they relate to each other um so I appreciate you for uh uh
2:10
joining us today to discuss that but I think um let’s talk about the burning
2:16
one at the moment because that’s where all the world detention is and justifiably so um Israel and Gaza what’s
2:22
what’s your summary of what do you think is the dynamic there at the moment uh well be before I um give you that I
2:30
should say that I would imagine that some of what I have to say would probably invite the criticism of
2:38
anti-Semitism and I just want to put it out in front that I am not
2:43
anti-semitic uh the Palestinians are asitic people and expressing Sympathy
2:50
for the Palestinian plot is by NE definition not
2:56
anti-semitic uh so I am however
3:03
anti-zionist uh when I first joined Foreign Affairs way back in 1967 I was asked where I wanted to be
3:09
posted I said anywhere but Israel I was asked why and I said because the Zionist
3:17
state of Israel is applying to the people of Palestine the same measures
3:22
that the Nazis applied to the Jews uh I consider the that political Zionism has
3:30
nothing to do with the promotion of uh the respect for uh the the Jewish people
3:39
and the Jewish religion um it’s it’s um a distortion which many many Jews around
3:47
the world agree with and I think that’s important to note that here in even in
3:53
Melbourne we find many Jewish Australians marching with people who who
3:59
are demonstrating in support of Palestine and against the uh Massacre of
4:06
the Palestinian people so I just wanted to get that up front well it is important it is important to be able to
4:12
say that and you it’s it’s a sort of statement that um up until now and still
4:18
now will earn you a lot of criticism for saying it but um you can’t ignore the
4:27
the true horror of what’s actually taking place right now now in Gaza and if um criticism of Israel is allowed to
4:35
be construed as anti-Semitism which is what the the most hardcore zionists and
4:43
and the neocon crowd have tried to to achieve over the last few years shut down any criticism of Israel then it’s
4:50
actually in my view John doing a dis a disservice to Jewish people right it’s um that’s why a lot of Jewish people
4:56
themselves don’t agree with it um and and it’s certainly going going to blow back on everybody um as if this is
5:02
allowed to get out of control um so all right with that said uh this is this is
5:08
serious what’s your view uh well the defense of
5:14
Israel or and the defense of the right of Israel to exist does not uh imply in
5:23
any way the necessary destruction of another people uh
5:30
you cannot defend the right of one by denying the right of the other yeah uh
5:38
and it it has been made clear by many statements by senior leaders in the
5:43
current Israeli government from the Prime Minister down that their clear
5:48
intention is to uh Drive the Palestinian people out of Palestine uh and uh they
6:00
have suggested that the countries which are sympathetic towards Palestinians
6:07
should take them uh and thereby clear
6:13
them out of of Palestine uh which of course is uh a an ethnic cleansing
6:23
process uh accompanied Now by a uh a level of Slaughter
6:30
that the world has not seen since the second world war except I might say for
6:35
the uh the American Onslaught on Iraq Y
6:41
which uh going after the non-existent weapons of mass destruction resulted in
6:46
the deaths of at least a million people uh when you say they’ve made it these the people in the Israeli government
6:52
have made it clear um you you’re referring to things like even the Prime Minister Netanyahu quoting the Old
7:00
Testament the worst parts of the Old Testament saying you know go and Slaughter amalec uh leave no one alive
7:07
all this kind of thing the seed of AMC the seed of am um all men women and
7:12
children and all cattle uh and livestock uh to wipe the the seed of amalec from
7:20
the face of the Earth uh and he uh he was then quoted by Israeli
7:28
soldiers who were uh clearing the as they call it uh the
7:36
Palestinians out of the north of Gaza uh as they were blowing up uh Residential
7:44
Properties uh I’ve seen a video of of a group of them chanting uh the the words of
7:53
Benjamin Netanyahu about clearing the seed of AMC so it’s
7:59
that’s only one the the case put forward by South Africa
8:05
at the icj in the ha uh was extremely
8:11
detailed extremely clear very very uh precisely presented and left I think no
8:19
doubt in the mind of anybody who reads their document that uh Israel has e has
8:28
explicitly expressed genocidal intent uh and much to Australia’s shame
8:35
uh Australia has uh instead oftaking its responsibility as a sign
8:42
signatry to the genocide convention which requires us to take any action we
8:49
can to prevent a potential genocide we have done the opposite uh in
8:57
providing military and political support to uh Israel to enable it to continue on
9:06
its present course this is I think a betrayal of the
9:12
Australian people it’s a betrayal of what we stand for or what we should
9:17
stand for as a nation we have a proud history of developing the the United
9:25
Nations we were in on the ground floor in the development of the United Nations
9:30
organization and in on the ground floor in the development of many of the
9:36
earliest uh resolutions and conventions of the United Nations
9:42
organization including the genocide convention which of course dates back to 1948 uh and we have um
9:54
basically refused to undertake our obligations under the
10:00
convention and instead the one the the one
10:05
group uh we could Now call it a country I think uh Yemen uh in seeking to
10:13
prevent uh commercial chipping to and from Israel uh is in fact doing what it
10:21
can to bring the jde to a halt and we have joined in attacking that well y is
10:29
actually you’re right Yemen has said that their actions which are being characterized as equivalent of piracy
10:35
and terrorism that their action is actually in um support of the genocide
10:40
convention and trying to stop genocide and what they’re effectively trying to do this is my reading of it is impose a
10:47
blockade on Israel now that’s being called terrorism yet the United States
10:53
under no Authority whatsoever claims it has the right to impose blockades on countries
10:59
right it has well Israel itself imposes a blockade on Gaza and has done so for 17 years exactly Israel also
11:06
participates um not that long ago Israel bombed an Iranian ship in the Persian
11:12
Gulf going to Syria right because Israel claims to the right to have a blockade on Syria so that that’s never called
11:19
terrorism and this is important for people to understand when they think about you know the way this is
11:24
characterized in the media that’s never called terrorism but what the yemenis are doing the h are doing in with the
11:30
shipping is and now we have gone and assisted the United States and the
11:35
United Kingdom in bombing them yes you’re quite right I would argue that the that the hoodis in Yemen have in
11:42
fact undertaken their responsibilities under the the genocide convention uh one of the effects of of
11:51
the uh British and American um attacks
11:56
on the hooes in Yemen I think has been simply to consolidate
12:01
the authority of the the huis as the legitimate government in Yemen the the
12:09
Civil War that was taking has had been taking place in Yemen over more than seven
12:16
years uh supported by the United States through its proxy Saudi Arabia um has is
12:25
virtually over and the opponents of the htis have been clearly
12:31
discredited uh in comparison to what the the htis are doing they should be called
12:38
by their proper name anara um but they they are
12:44
clearly taking action in response to the will of their people uh who
12:51
overwhelmingly support Palestine in its struggle against the um the overwhelming
13:00
uh force of the Israeli um Defense Force which is armed by the United States
13:06
because it should be remembered that the Palestinians do not have an army um they don’t actually they don’t
13:12
have a state uh they are in Palestine an
13:17
area which is claimed by Israel and the area that is occupied by the
13:23
Palestinians is actually under occupation under forceful occupation by
13:29
Israel so the the actions by Hamas as
13:35
horrendous as it was uh is more in the character of a rebellion against the
13:43
oppression of an occupying power than an invasion of one state by another that is
13:49
its status under international law yeah which is a very important distinction that the Israelis don’t want to make
13:56
they’re trying to they’re trying to treat Gaza and Hamas as if it’s a separate country with its own government
14:02
that they’re defending against yeah which is a paradox because they claim that that that Gaza and the West Bank
14:09
are actually that do actually belong to Israel uh and that uh the the
14:15
Palestinians have no right to it so on the one hand they say it is ours and on the other hand they say we’ve been
14:21
invaded yeah uh from within our own territory now now John there’s a human
14:27
factor here you to it earlier when you said talked about how the the the houthis are responding to the the yemeni
14:34
population’s views so Israel will say it’s responding to the Israeli population’s views and all of this is
14:41
Justified because of just what an atrocity was perpetrated on October 7
14:47
the the worst the worst um Massacre of Jews since the Holocaust itself and
14:53
therefore what they’re doing is Justified and every every other country would be justified and doing the same
14:58
what is your view of that argument firstly uh my understanding is
15:05
that that the vast majority of the citizens of Israel do in fact um support
15:13
the The View that the the uh Palestinians are subhuman and uh have no
15:21
right to be there but there are dissenting views within Israel itself
15:26
secondly I think and far more importantly is that two wrongs do not make a
15:33
right uh that it is it is not a an appropriate response to an atrocity to
15:41
then commit a a an further atrocity of
15:47
many many many times greater magnitude yeah um in response uh it is
15:55
uh it’s just uh completely immoral and I think
16:03
uh unacceptable from a moral point of view but it’s also politically um um
16:10
unwise and counterproductive well we’ve got um as
16:16
you referred to the the South Africans have taken Israel to the international court of justice and accusing them of
16:23
having genocidal intent um but of course the United States has completely shot that down and and said there is no there
16:30
is no genocide taking place in Gaza yet and we’ll come back to this later in the
16:35
discussion but the same United States for the last three years has been blowing the horns saying that what China
16:43
is doing to weers in shinjang is genocide basically making him go to TFE
16:48
college and retrain is genocide but what’s happening in Gaza is not genocide and so if you’re if you’re an Arab in
16:54
the world and you’re seeing what’s happening in Gaza that is being um protected by the United
17:03
States and the United Kingdom and Australia Etc as if it’s somehow acceptable um isn’t that going to one
17:10
give you a very strong impression that in global terms you are a second class citizen your life doesn’t matter and B
17:17
Fuel any uh you know fuel the kind of backlash that’s going to create more
17:23
destabilizations more terrorism Etc uh well my first comment is you said that the United States had shot down the uh
17:31
South African case at the icj uh I don’t agree uh they didn’t shoot it down they
17:36
merely rejected it U shooting down implies that they had come up with some sort of an argument which um uh
17:44
undermined the the arguments being put forward by South Africa they they
17:50
clearly did not do that uh that’s why you’re the expert foreign policy Diplomat and on the commentator the the
17:58
the uh the Israeli arguments in the icj
18:03
uh were clearly an attempt to defend the indefensible and the United States um
18:10
outright rejection of the uh South African case uh really amounted to
18:16
nothing more than that they certainly did not weaken the South African case at
18:21
all yeah um uh the big concern I think for the
18:27
world is the uh the possibility that the icj
18:36
may find a procedural argument to not
18:41
proceed and not rule on the South African application which as I has
18:48
implications for the whole world because it it really um will
18:56
um te te out the foundations of international law just completely rip
19:04
them away it will be uh an acceptance you of the rule of the Jungle
19:13
rather than the rule of law ironically at the hands of the
19:19
nations in the world that tell everybody every day they’re enforcing the rules based order which of course they’re not
19:27
enforc the rule of international law the rules-based order yeah what’s the
19:33
difference the rules-based order is a a set of for ever varying and con
19:39
constantly vacillating uh rules devised by the United States for the benefit of the
19:47
United States and its Western allies uh a very good example of course is the the
19:54
the United States claim and our claim uh in the Red Sea that the actions they’re
20:01
taking are upholding and Richard Miles said this himself Australia must uh
20:07
support the United States and the UK because we must uphold the freedom of
20:15
navigation the the uh United Stations the United Nations convention on the law
20:21
of the sea uh is not what the United States is inm attempting to uphold no at
20:29
all it is attempting to uphold the the right of the western powers to
20:36
uh continue their navigation wherever they please uh the United States is not
20:42
even a signatory to the law of the sea convention and repudiates it quite
20:49
frequently uh so uh I personally I’m am quite distressed by this glib um
20:57
approach approach of the Australian government of always insisting that we
21:02
must uphold the rules-based order um because one of the most difficult things
21:09
about the rules-based order is finding out what the rules are the Ever Changing rules the Ever
21:15
Changing rules um and we are going to have to face our responsibilities with
21:20
regard to China uh we we cannot continue to pursue uh a a hostile attit ude
21:28
towards China uh but we’ll come to that in a minute
21:34
um the largest strategic picture that I wanted to talk about this morning was
21:40
the way in which the crisis in Ukraine
21:46
the Middle East and the way that they relate to the potential crisis uh with
21:54
regard to China first and foremost the United
22:00
States has not abandoned its policy of Defending its position as the of of
22:10
Primacy in the world yeah that is still the driving force of United States
22:16
foreign and defense policy known as the wolf ofit Doctrine known as The Wolf of itsz Doctrine that’s number one secondly
22:23
in pursuit of that it has to be remembered that before the Ukraine war
22:32
broke out as if Wars actually break out rather than being the deliberate agency of
22:37
human of human persons but before the war in Ukraine the United States White
22:44
House spokesman actually told a press briefing on the 22nd of January
22:53
2022 that the United States by its actions in concert with
22:59
its European uh Partners would so weaken
23:04
Russia as to prevent it from exercising any influence on the international stage
23:11
so the purpose was clear from the start
23:17
and they have not succeeded in that aim uh it is indisputable now that the that
23:25
Russia is in a stronger position today than it was before that war before
23:31
NATO pursued its uh offensive against uh Russia and I may be attacked for saying
23:39
that the Ukraine war is is the result of NATO’s aggression but NATO itself has
23:46
made it very very clear that it it has said the war in Ukraine is NATO’s War um
23:53
Yen stoltenberg has said that on numerous occasions so it is quite clear that it is NATO driven by the United
24:01
States that uh is responsible certainly for the continuation of the the war in
24:08
Ukraine y likewise of course in pursuit of of the supremacy of the United States
24:16
the United States gives completely unconditional and unquestion unquestioning support to
24:24
Israel which has uh resulted in the current tumult in that
24:31
region and although it says that it has no wish for the war to widen that it
24:37
should be contained as a war between Israel and Hamas the surrounding
24:44
countries uh in J well we’ve mentioned Yemen of course and then we’ve got
24:50
Jordan and Saudi Arabia and Syria uh and of course Iran uh all in the and Lebanon
24:58
and turkey actually and turkey surprisingly enough which is of course a
25:03
a NATO member and the the biggest army in NATO and yes I’m glad you made that point um they all have expressed
25:13
sympathy for and support for the Palestinian people in this conflict yeah
25:19
uh and we are seeing gradually day by day an increasing involvement of these
25:26
countries um hisbah in Lebanon has been attacking North North of Israel and
25:32
Israel has been counterattacking that’s been going on for a while um we have
25:38
recently seen I think it was last week the the Iranian revolutionary guard Corp
25:46
not one of Iran’s so-called proxies um in the the
25:53
um anti-israeli uh so-called terrorist group groups in uh closer to Israel but
26:02
now Iran itself with its own Defense Force has attacked an Israeli
26:10
installation inil in uh in Iraq so
26:16
that’s one step closer to Iran being fully engaged in the conflict uh now if
26:25
Iran and Israel are at war with each other um that puts at risk Iran’s oil
26:33
facilities in particular uh and the closure of the uh Persian
26:40
Gulf in in a way similar to the closure of the the Red
26:46
Sea if the if the Straits of hus were to be shut down or if if Iran’s oil
26:52
production and oil shipping facilities were um destroyed
26:58
destroyed this impacts vitally on China’s interest Iran is a very very important
27:06
supplier of energy to China Y and of course we can see the China’s
27:11
recognition of that fact by the fact that China has located uh numerous
27:19
um military vessels in the area of the uh Straits of
27:26
huz uh they have uh signaled that they are willing to protect their interests
27:35
uh if it comes to it uh now if uh if
27:40
China is dragged into the conflict in the Middle East this serves the purpose
27:48
of the United States strategic plan of
27:53
involving China in a war which would help help to uh bog down China’s
28:00
Economic Development and sty its um its
28:06
Economic Development cooperation with other
28:11
countries it the United I would expect to see the United States to try extremely hard in
28:21
the same way that it has done in Ukraine to technically not be engaged in such a
28:29
war but but to support those who were fighting on the side of Israel what
28:36
you’re describing means they also have an incentive to assist Israel in keeping this
28:41
going um I think that would
28:46
be it’s beyond my knowledge to say so um I’m only able to say What appears to be
28:52
the case um I don’t know whether the United States has had uh has sort of
29:01
logically worked out that it’s in their interest to keep the Israel um Hamas war
29:07
going uh and that that they can sort of
29:13
play a dual game of uh remaining
29:18
disengaged themselves whilst ensuring that other countries become engaged um
29:25
well the foreign policy establishment in Washington is known as The Blob to reflect the fact that it’s not always of
29:31
one mind Etc but there would be factions in that that that would absolutely have that and we and we should remember that
29:38
the United the United States national defense strategy explicitly laid out uh
29:44
a strategy of uh embroiling China in a
29:49
war yeah and that at the time that that
29:54
was developed it was seen that Taiwan could be induced
30:03
to uh cause a conflict with mainland China
30:10
uh the chances of that happening I think
30:15
have diminished despite the elections in [Music]
30:21
Taiwan the Taiwan elections resulted in the election as president of of the
30:27
leader of the DP the DPP which is the the Democratic people’s party which is
30:35
um strongly supported by the National Endowment for democracy of the United States uh and they’re the ones talk
30:41
about independ as the instrument for pushing uh Taiwan to Independence
30:46
yeah which would be a trigger for war so that has been interpreted by the uh
30:52
mainstream Western media as the Taiwanese people in endorsing the policy
30:58
of Independence for Taiwan and it’s far from being the case the the DPP candidate won by 40% of the
31:08
vote that means that 60% of the vote is not in favor of the dpp’s policy
31:16
regarding U potential Independence for Taiwan and explicitly so because the other two candidates were were both
31:23
explicit about not seeking Independence getting on with China and they they got 60% of the support that’s 60% of the
31:30
vote and there was a 30% of the electorate that didn’t vote at all anyway didn’t vote at all anyway and who who knows what they thought so the
31:37
people as a whole in Taiwan have clearly not overwhelmingly supported the the
31:43
dpp’s policy of continuing this pursuit of Independence and even uh William Li
31:51
uh L CH uh who is now the the president of the province of Taiwan one has walked
32:00
back uh hasn’t he hasn’t disavowed but he certainly walked back from the idea
32:08
of early Independence for Taiwan um and I would expect to see him
32:16
over time continuing to pursue the the expansion of the beneficial
32:26
relation that have taken place in trade investment uh education people to-
32:34
people exchanges um employment and so on between the province of Taiwan and the
32:41
mainland U which is the preferred course of course for the um the Communist Party
32:50
of China the policy of the Communist Party of China is the peaceful reintegration yeah of the life of Taiwan
32:58
into the life of the N the nation and that is continuing to to take place and
33:06
my impression is that most of the people in Taiwan want that status quo to
33:13
continue now the Australian the chinaese ambassador to Australia on Election Day
33:18
which was last Saturday as we’re recording here put put out an article pointing that out yeah um and he’s been
33:24
criticized for it and he’s been attacked for it not just criticized uh he’s been accused of of threatening
33:32
Australia of all things uh where he has pointed out the obvious Australia and I was of course as
33:39
you know I was involved before during and after uh the recognition of the
33:45
People’s Republic of China uh 30% of my career uh was spent working on relations
33:52
with China the position that Australia adopted was that we accepted that there
34:01
was one China that we accepted that Taiwan is a province of
34:08
China uh that that policy of one China incorporating the province of Taiwan was
34:15
not only accepted by us but was accepted by every other country that recognized
34:20
China and was accepted by the United Nations uh which established that the
34:27
one seat for China in the United Nations was to be occupied by the People’s
34:33
Republic of China and accepting that was China’s requirement for opening up diplomatic relations with us right yes
34:39
of course for which for which we knew we would benefit because we have access to the world’s biggest Market yeah all all
34:46
of that we but we we uh we did not then
34:51
argue yeah uh nor have we argued since uh that Taiwan is officially not part of
35:00
China uh and our our official legal position therefore is that Taiwan is a
35:05
province of China so when we send our warships into Taiwanese Waters we are in
35:12
fact sending our warships into Chinese Waters the equivalent of Warships
35:17
between Tasmania and Victoria yes if the Chinese Center warship between Australia and T and the and the island of
35:24
Tasmania which is claim by Australia but has never been ruled by Australia to defend Tasmania to to defend Tasmania
35:33
against Australia uh we would certainly get very upset um so uh the other thing
35:41
I would say is that that there is always a great deal of confusion of this question of of sovereignty and and
35:49
governance the sovereignty of a Nation does not change when there is a change
35:55
of governance y y uh if we have a a
36:00
labor party in power in canra and we have a liberal party in power in Tasmania that does not make Tasmania any
36:08
less a part of the Sovereign Nation of Australia yeah and it’s the same in
36:13
China uh the island of Taiwan the province of Taiwan has a different form
36:19
of governance from the rest of mainland China and indeed mainland China has
36:25
different forms of government es in different parts of China we have the
36:31
special administrative regions of Hong Kong and maau and and of course shenen
36:36
and each one of those has different characteristics they are not identical and we also have the autonomous regions
36:44
of uh in Mongolia Tibet and syang which whilst they are part integral part of
36:52
the Sovereign territory of China they are uh neverthe
36:57
less operating under varied systems of governance well and this as you
37:04
mentioned propaganda before there’s an exact example of this in the Australian
37:10
newspapers propaganda the way it described when it attacked the Australian Ambassador it talked about
37:16
how the CCP want to take control of
37:21
Taiwan even though they have never governed it and of course it’s not true the the CCP I the government of China
37:28
wants Taiwan to be part of China not owned by the CCP they’re just the
37:33
government of China right this is the way they word the proper end well the the Communist party for China has always
37:39
made it very very clear that the the issue is that Taiwan is part of the
37:45
Sovereign territory of China yeah they have never said that they wish to take
37:50
over governance in Taiwan they even said exactly the opposite and in fact de
37:57
facto right at this moment the one state two
38:04
systems policy of the Communist Party of China is functioning if in regard to
38:12
Taiwan Taiwan has a different system within Taiwan that does not remove it
38:18
from The Sovereign territory of China y uh and of course it we it is
38:24
conveniently forgotten that Taiwan itself was a one party State yes a rather brutal one party state for many
38:32
many years it’s only recently in the 90s that it has has changed its system of
38:40
governance to uh a electoral democracy
38:45
um we’ve been running a series in our magazine the Australian alert service on this history of Taiwan which is
38:51
fascinating when you see what what it was really like but my point here is of course that that Australia is in fact in
38:58
breach of the convention to which it is a signatory the convention of the law of the sea when we send
39:06
warships into Chinese Waters but just so we don’t get off
39:12
track you’ve you you introduced us with a much larger point I think want want to make sure people get it which is that
39:18
thanks to this interesting outcome from the Taiwanese election and some other things because the immediate danger of
39:25
war with China CH may not be growing the American strategy may be to draw China
39:31
into war well I don’t I don’t know if it’s a strategy I’m looking at the actual the the results of events yeah um
39:39
as I see them U the elections in Taiwan have not brought Independence for Taiwan
39:47
any closer yeah uh and so the prospect of Taiwan provoking a war uh with
39:55
mainland China has receded yes in my view right however
40:01
the events in the Middle East and particularly in the way in which they appear to be drawing China further and
40:07
further in uh is raising the prospect of China being involved in a middle eastern
40:16
War uh as I said I I believe that the United States would try to
40:21
to technically remain outside that war for as long as it POS possibly can um
40:29
but I China will defend its interests in its in its uh energy relationship with
40:36
Iran if necessary if that does result in the
40:42
United States becoming U an an active belligerent against
40:48
China Australia is automatically involved yeah because uh because
40:54
American no it’s not just just because what we do we have no say in it yeah you
41:00
know it’s like the song says because we have no say in it no say in it at all we
41:06
we are the we have handed over sovereignty uh to the United States
41:14
in many respects uh our one of the most important is that Bas military bases in
41:21
Australia are under the the unimpeded needed access and exclusive control of
41:30
the United States so they decide when where and how uh the facilities in
41:36
Australia and against whom those fa facilities in Australia will be used uh
41:42
for many many many years now Pine Gap has been the the jewel in the crown um
41:48
of the United States military presence in Australia and has been used uh in the
41:54
war in Ukraine uh I have no doubt at all that it is currently being used in uh
42:01
the war in the Middle East we can Israel Gaza War this has been documented we can
42:06
confirm that guidance of Israeli strikes has come from Pine Gap yes so Pine Gap
42:11
is is is heavily involved so the question then arises if the United
42:16
States does find itself in an actual belligerent uh con confrontation uh with
42:24
China uh what then happens to Australia because the United States
42:31
undoubtedly would be conducting its operations against China from its command centers in
42:39
Australia so to me it would appear to be logical that China would then feel
42:46
obliged to attack such centers in Australia uh and of course Australia on
42:54
past performance would feel obliged to join the join the United States in any
43:01
war against China because we we felt that we simply had to because of the
43:07
ansus alliance we had to go into the war in Iraq uh which was a very shameful
43:13
episode in Australia’s history uh we feel that we have to support the United
43:18
States in the in its support of Israel against Hamas uh because of the ansis
43:25
alliance so I don’t think we would have any choice Richard miles and and and I think
43:32
the Prime Minister have said that Australia has given no guarantees to the United States that we would join it in a
43:38
war against China but the United States has left Australia with no choice but to
43:45
be involved so it’s a bit of irony that the the alliance that on which we feel
43:51
our security depends is what will um destroy our national security by
43:56
dragging his award yes of course it will and that as we’ve said on previous
44:02
discussions that that’s been pointed out by many people including the late
44:08
M I must say I will reiterate the point I made in a previous interview as well
44:14
that when I was working in the department of Foreign Affairs developing the uh the final communic on recognition
44:23
of the People’s Republic of China I inserted into a policy planning paper
44:29
which I was one of the people involved in drafting the the notion that the
44:37
answers Alliance should mean less to us in the future than it has done in the past and that Australia
44:44
should chart independent policies more in the Australian National interest and
44:50
in the interest of our near neighbors the exact opposite has
44:55
happened none of our near neighbors agrees with our current
45:02
defense policy No in fact they see it as a threat they object to it they they see it as threatening that it threatens in
45:09
various ways it certainly threatens uh uh a nuclear AR sorry a nuclear
45:14
proliferation in in the Pacific we’ve brought nuclear weapons into an area that they didn’t exist before previously
45:20
were were excluded uh it also um threatens a a general arms race in our
45:29
neighborhood uh the more we we build up uh our long range uh offensive
45:38
capabilities which is what Mr miles keeps talking about our ability to to um
45:45
uh inflict uh lethal damage on an adversary far from our Shores uh the
45:52
more our near neighbors will question our intentions towards them as well um
46:00
and we we would be far better advised I think to I still think what I said back
46:06
in 1971 applies that we would be far better advised to develop much closer
46:12
relations with our neighbors than to join with the United States in farflung
46:18
Wars we should be of course at the point that Australia of course joined the United States in the war in
46:24
Ukraine well John that that um brings us to something we can conclude on then I
46:30
think so it’s always rather Stark and striking to into have have you on our
46:36
show with with these insights but let’s let’s um talk about what could we how
46:41
should we be thinking if we wanted this not to happen and we actually wanted to bring about peace what’s what’s your
46:47
view on on the kind of um role Australia should play and could play in the way
46:54
the world is maneuvering at the moment that might be positive and we could help bring about peace well I find that very
47:01
difficult question to answer because um I have an extremely pessimistic view of
47:07
where Australia is headed I I think we’ve we’ve dug
47:12
ourselves into a very deep hole and it’s very difficult to climb out of
47:20
um and every passing day we seem to dig ourselves in a little deeper it would have been so it would
47:28
have been preferable for Australia to have simply said we will abide by our obligations under the genocide
47:34
convention in regard to Israel yeah um
47:40
the the I think part of the problem is of course we don’t have leaders in Australia we have rulers and the rulers
47:47
ignore the not only the opinion of the general public but they in ignore increasingly ignore the opinion of their
47:54
Rank and file uh the rank and file of the labor party is clearly not in in
48:00
tune with the government’s policies uh regarding uh Israel and Hamas and it’s
48:07
clearly not in tune even with the government’s policies towards China yeah
48:12
um the schizophrenic policies that we have towards China where on the one hand we say we want a trade relationship with
48:19
China and on the other hand we regard China as the biggest threat um in other
48:24
words quite paradoxically we’re asking China to continue to fund the
48:29
development of our capability to fight them yeah you you you keep you keep buying
48:37
our IR or we will keep paying the Americans $360 billion for submarines to
48:42
lock you into your part of the world and there and and trap you in and and fire
48:47
missiles on you if we think you’re getting too up yeah so that brings us back to your question about the United
48:53
Nations I think the only way for Australia is is to um revive its commitment to the ideals
49:01
of the United Nations uh to vote in favor of resolutions that that seek to
49:09
uphold the the structure of uh international
49:14
law which we so frequently fail to do um in in recent
49:21
times and couldn’t we look at a situation like the Middle East and as
49:29
um a friend of mine who who actually is Jewish uh uh suggested just before
49:36
Christmas who had been as outraged by October 7 as everybody but when he when
49:41
he thought about it more he thought you know we’ve got a failed we got a broken situation in the Middle East and the
49:48
role of the Americans and the British Etc they it it just isn’t working and he suggested now might be the time to bring
49:55
in countries that have credibility and it just so happens China in world affairs is a country that has
50:01
credibility has good relations with almost all these countries it does deals it does business with them all including
50:07
Israel enough and of course it it broke of the reconciliation between Saudi Arabia and Iran and how big a deal was
50:13
that and well that was enormous because firstly it was it was uh reaching an understanding between two
50:21
opposing uh forms of Islam uh Iran is
50:26
Shia and uh Saudi Arabia is largely wahhabi uh non Shia Sunni and and uh and
50:36
Sunni um and of course Iraq I was in
50:41
Teran during the Iran Iraq war so I was there when Iraq was bombing Iran and bombing Teran um fortunately no bombs
50:49
fell on me but they certainly fell on the city of tan for for this interview too while I was there
50:57
but now even Iran and Iraq are working together uh to to develop U more
51:05
harmonious uh relations so and of course the one thing that has United all of the
51:12
Islamic World it seems including the Islamic World nearest to Australia which is Indonesia um is in their opposition
51:20
to the current Zionist policy of eradication of Palestinians M um
51:27
so it it is because I think the whole of the Islamic world the the
51:36
um the Islamic cooperation organization is 21 is it or 27 countries all of which
51:45
have uh endorsed the opposition to
51:50
um Israel’s attack on Palestine or on the palestin iians um
51:58
so that’s creating uh a much greater critical mass for a
52:07
World War y yeah uh as you say China has
52:13
uh has the respect of the Islamic World
52:18
despite coming back to your previous Point despite the Western propaganda about China’s treatment of the wigers in
52:25
Sy young which has been so thoroughly debunked so many times I don’t think we need to go there except to say that the
52:32
the the the main block of countries that have explicitly defended China repeatedly have been the Islamic
52:38
countries which is one of the reasons why China has such good relationships with Islamic countries but um so whether
52:45
China would be able to uh broker uh an understanding in the Israel Hamas
52:54
conflict I don’t know I’m not sure um I think at the
52:59
moment by their actions um militarily
53:04
China has demonstrated more of an interest in protecting their own economic and particularly energy
53:11
interests rather than um becoming um you
53:17
know getting themselves mered in the Quagmire of middle east’s conflict um but we
53:24
shall see um I don’t Chinese diplomacy has never
53:29
failed to surprise the world U so it may yet do so again but as far as Australia and if it
53:37
does Australia should be supporting it we should indeed I think diplomatically we should do everything we possibly can
53:43
to encourage uh any effort by China to uh bring about a resolution of the
53:49
conflict that should be our role anywhere in the world uh rather than
53:55
simply donning our Jack Boots and rushing off to uh join the Americans in
54:02
whatever War they happen to be Pro Prosecuting at the time and I you know we’ve been doing it ever since the the
54:08
Korean War um and I think America’s had something like 147 Wars since the second
54:15
world war so you know we we haven’t good track record uh as a conciliator and of
54:22
course uh we we certainly in the current uh
54:28
situation we uh have joined the hypocrisy of the
54:35
western propaganda machine which which produces the
54:40
ignorance which then the governments exploit to be able to pursue these policies that are purs that are not in
54:45
our interest but in the United States and the UK’s yeah yeah you know interest
54:51
yes yes the uh the gaslighting in Australia is overwhelming y yep um well
54:58
John I think we should leave it there you’ve shocked us you’ve shocked us enough for the day I think that’s a
55:05
that’s a fairly grave warning though we should look for we should keep a an eye out for that danger that you’ve
55:10
described um because we know we know as we’ve talked about on in previous
55:16
installments of these interviews there is a military industrial complex it is always looking for war opportunities
55:22
that is the evil presence in the world we’re always that the forces for peace are always up against which is expanding
55:28
its foothold in Australia exactly we’re and we’re funding it so we we know we
55:34
know that exists and so and so it’s right to be on the lookout for where the war dangers um are are getting greater
55:42
um because we’ve talked so much about Israel and Gaza I I’ll conclude by a little plug for the report that we put
55:48
out just before Christmas on the the Temple Mount plot who is sparking where we’ve re-released some anal from years
55:55
ago who was sparking a religious war in the Middle East where you got Elite forces in the United States and
56:01
especially the United Kingdom in this case very elite um groupings of of interests actually deliberately
56:08
sponsoring the craziest of the crazies in Israel the the the religious
56:13
extremists who see themselves as you know totally justified and everything
56:19
because they’re God’s chosen people they want to rebuild Solomon’s Temple on the on the ruins of the mosc of om AR the
56:25
alaa mosque and which would start World War III that that is what that is the one thing that will get all those 27
56:31
Muslim countries in the same army yes right for sure I think so yes and and there were and and these people in
56:37
Israel would not have the power they have were it not for the outside sponsorship they receive and it comes
56:43
from Australia as well our prime minister our former prime minister was over there recently who’s fundamentalist
56:49
born again Christian who buys into all this narrative um backing them up to the hill so we’ve exposed is that there are
56:55
there are forces who want war and they so we’ll put a link below this where you can have a look at the report I’m
57:00
talking about and just just comment that goes all the way back to the fact that
57:06
it was the UK that sponsored the creation of Israel and it was the UK’s
57:12
military forces that helped Drive helped
57:17
in the the partition of Palestine to to drive Palestinians out of the territory
57:25
that had been agreed by the United Nations resolution should be now the
57:31
state of Israel um so the UK has been a driving force in the creation of Israel
57:38
and in the sustaining of Israel ever since day one yep no for sure our party
57:45
is not a party that goes around trying to decry the existence of Israel Etc we
57:51
like to look at what’s what’s the possibility to bring peace to all places how could you bring a lasting peace
57:58
between the Israelis and the Palestinians Etc we don’t have a a um a chip on our shoulder about Israel but we
58:05
see the hypocrisy and now we see the hypocrisy in the worst possible terms because
58:10
there is an absolute Massacre there’s of the 24,000 civilians in Gaza that have been
58:16
killed 10,000 over 10,000 are children there’s a thousand children numbers increasing every day exactly there’s a
58:22
thousand children who have who have had limbs amputated without anesthetic
58:27
because of the blockade on Gaza right that’s right and that is acceptable to
58:34
our government acceptable in the minds of so many uh people in the west
58:41
because they are numbers they are faceless and nameless yep y so it’s just
58:47
a statistic uh whereas um while we claim we’re the champions of Human Rights
58:53
though yeah that’s what I meant about hypocrisy um all right well anyway
59:00
obviously if we if we kept going in this vein we wouldn’t stop we’d be here all day I just wanted to thank you for the
59:06
opportunity to sound the warning again to uh Australia um watch out uh war is
59:14
coming and we’re not doing anything to avoid it yeah all right well John thank
59:20
you very much for joining us today thanks to the viewer for watching citizens Insight stay tuned for more
59:27
more installments we plan to do a lot more of our citizens Insight interviews this year we didn’t do very many last
59:33
year but there’s a lot to be said so look out for more installments uh in the future including the the one that we’re
59:40
planning next in a couple of weeks time will be about this this Temple Mount plot we’re going to do an interview with
59:46
one of the authors of the analysis of that so look out for that but in the meantime um thanks for tuning in please
59:51
help us get this message around like it uh share it on your social media and and
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through email Etc um uh subscribe to the show click on the Bell icon so you get
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notified of of of our new future episodes and yeah help us get it around
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thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you next time on Citizen’s
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